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Author Topic: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care  (Read 368 times)

Tycho McKorley

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*Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« on: October 06, 2009, 05:22:57 PM »

Here's another one I've transcribed from my blog.  Let the controversy begin.

Health Care: An Easier Road
September 23, 2009
By Farther Up

There are two types of political thinkers in the United States. The first group thinks that only the strict enforcement of governing bodies, with their attendant bureaucracies, can bring about desired results. The second group firmly believes that the proper incentives coupled with well-constructed social structures –like functional free markets- can produce desirable behavior.  Setting aside the philosophical question about whether or not leaders and governments should seek to direct the behavior of others, the contrasts between the aforementioned groups are tremendous.  The current debate about health care provides some demonstrative examples.

The general consensus among many on the Left is that there ought to be a large, government-sponsored entity that provides subsidized insurance to the American public.  The basic idea is that such an entity would have market power:  the ability to dictate the prices it would be willing to pay hospitals and doctors for their services.  It would have this power because it would be one of the few (if not the only) customers for medical practitioners.  The Left desires this “single payer” or “public option” because it solves a major problem in American health care:  it’s cost.

More Liberal* minded individuals, on the other hand, believe that there is a much simpler way to reduce costs.  Instead of giving a government firm market power to bargain down prices, give individuals more liberty to dictate their own health insurance plans.  Currently, the payer for most private insurance is not the same as the individual receiving services.  This is because most private insurance comes through private work-place benefits.  As such, individuals over-consume health care services because they do not face the full costs of using them.

A simple way to reduce costs would be to allow individuals to select their own insurance policies so that they can see and understand the differences in co-pays, premiums, and more.  This ought to reduce costs because it would end, rather quickly, the over-consumption of health care.  This method is, of course, a much more liberal and less complicated one than the one expounded by the Left.

Another instance of the contrasting in political thought in the United States is the debate over the quality of health insurance Americans receive.  The Left generally believes that a large government-run solution health insurance firm would ensure that individuals receive better quality of care than they do now.

Others, however, point out that the problem is that private insurance providers are not directly accountable to individuals.  Instead they are accountable to private firms whose biggest incentive is to keep premiums down.  The way most insurance companies go about this is to reduce benefits.

A simple, Liberal solution to this is the same one expounded before for fixing health care costs.  If individuals can select their own health care packages, then private insurance firms become accountable to them.  This in turn leads to better service.  No more denied coverage or frivolous waits.  It would be similar to the markets that exist for auto-insurance and life insurance:  flexible choices that give the individual the ability to meet his or her needs.

A final example of the contrast in the mentalities of political thinkers is the question of how to provide health care for every individual in the United States.  Currently, the Left advocates an expensive government-run system of health insurance with complicated regulations for private insurers.  Further, the Left also calls for stiff penalties on those who do not buy insurance.

A simpler and more Liberal approach is to subsidize private insurance markets. If the goal of the United States government is to insure all Americans, then the easiest way to do this is to provide subsidies, either through tax credits or some other scheme for Americans to buy it.  The proposition to subsidize private consumption is not very shocking because the government already provides subsidies to Americans to buy food and other goods from private firms.  The government could even subsidize according to income level if it wanted to just to make sure everything was “equitable” (and less expensive).

Either approach will probably solve many of the problems currently in the American health care system.  However, one approach is complicated and gives the Federal government a tremendous amount of power over the private lives of individuals.  The other gives people the liberty to make their own choices about health care while at the same time achieving the same policy goals.  Of course, the two solutions outlined are truly just reflections of the rift in opinion between those who want more centralized control to direct human behavior and those who believe that the same behavior can be achieved through proper adjustments to incentives.  Perhaps most importantly, however, one method is also significantly less expensive for the government and for the future generations who will have to repay the government’s debts.

*Note that “Liberal” here refers to liberal in the classical sense of the word, not the modern sense used by most Americans.

 

© 2009 Farther Up and Further In
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Vince401

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Re: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 07:45:10 PM »

I guess the question in my mind is, "Can we do that?". Your solution sounds good but the insurance companies aren't government run entities, so can the government step in and say who the insurance companies can or can't do business with?
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Jay

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Re: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 08:22:54 PM »

Going off of Vince's point, this now becomes government involving themselves with private run entities, instead of making these private run entities more competitive price wise as is the current aim. The first group, the left, as you point out doesn't carry the aim of having the government provide free health care and eliminate all other options, it's to provide coverage for everyone, and therefor create a competitor for health insurance providers that otherwise have no incentive to cover more people because they're making their money from other privately owned business, pharmaceuticals and laboratories.

As it stands, nations that do carry government-subsidized health care models aren't without health insurance, and these health insurance companies are more competitive in these countries than they currently are here, and the people of those countries get more value for their health care spending. What you are suggesting doesn't seem far off from the models current health care providers in other nations uses, but they use these models only because of the government subsidized health care. In other words, this was not a natural occurrence on the part of insurance companies in the more competitive nations. 

Because health care is currently so expensive, not just for the "little guy", but for businesses as well, it actually cripples our job market and is just one of the many cost that is needlessly dragging us down. The strain isn't place on the individual, but the society that is indeed supposed to be built on free market. Health insurance providers rather than try to work at competitive rates and offer incentives, or even customizable plans, are currently just draining a model they found worked for them decades ago, a model which won't support even them for much longer (but may admittedly be profitable for now). So what we might be looking at is the forced collapse of health insurance companies much in the same way we saw the simultaneous fall of several financial institutions.

I think what Vince and I are looking for here is cause and effect. Without government subsidized health care, which will be instant competition health insurance companies will have to face, what will make them refocus their current efforts, stop exploiting the system, and become more user friendly?
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Tycho McKorley

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Re: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 05:58:44 AM »

I guess I should have explained myself more clearly.  I don't mean that Uncle Sam should dictate what private insurance firms can and can't do.  Instead, I'd suggest that the government can induce that behavior by changing things in the tax code.  For example, removing the employer-only tax credit for insurance and then extending it to individuals would be a quick way to encourage individual consumption of health insurance and not corporate subsidized consumption.

This in turn would alter the market, as I've suggested, such that individuals would see their premiums, co-pays, and the like instead of having them dictated by their employers.  This would lead to competition among insurance firms to provide the cheapest, best-quality insurance, just like we have in the auto-insurance industry and the like.  There are a lot of other things the government could do to help us reach this outcome that I haven't even suggested, of course.  My point is that Federal government doesn't have to actually dictate what needs to happen.  Instead it only needs to make a few policy adjustments and we should have a system much like the one I've suggested.

I also would suggest that in the case of people who cannot afford insurance even with tax credits that the government extend vouchers (i.e. subsidies) to encourage consumption of it.  This would help our country reach the goal of ensuring that everybody has some form of health insurance.

I hope that makes my argument a bit clearer.

Have fun.
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Dingo

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Re: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 09:46:05 AM »

Health insurance companies are ravenous beasts. They do terrible things to good people to turn a profit; business as usual.

They either need to be told how to behave (which can happen very easily, Vince; all business is regulated in some way), or they need to be forced into compliance by finally having actual competition that threatens to put them out of business.

What shocks me most is that we claim to live in a democracy. Something like ~70% of the American population wants a public option. In America, that's a gargantuan unheard-of majority. The fact that there have to be debates about it in Washington blow my mind. We should be throwing our elected officials out on their asses for daring to go against the public that elected them. It really goes to show how politicians are on the leash of big businesses and not acting on our behalf. In a real democracy, we'd get a public option in an instant, because that's what we clearly want. Unfortunately, we have two groups who make it difficult:

1) The insurance companies themselves. They're paying the politicians to act on their behalf, rather than acting on the behalf of the public that elected them. I heard that we spend something like 300 billion dollars a year subsidizing insurance companies. That's half of what it would cost to set Obama's health plan into motion once, except spent every single year. Sorry to all the senile old radical conservative grandpas out there, but socialized medicine is not only more effective than capitalized medicine, it's cheaper. Capitalism is not the solution to everything. It's great for businesses, but business should not extend into your or my health.

2) The remaining 30% not in favor of a public option, generally comprised of insurance company-funded zealots and radical right wingers (I'm talking guys who look at moderate republicans and call them marxists just because they're so much farther left in comparison to themselves) screaming their fool heads off about communism and socialized medicine bringing armageddon, as always with no proof to back anything up (and especially seeing as we're #35ish in the world for overall health care quality, which means we have over 30 socialized medical systems doing better than us, you CAN'T argue a capitalist system is good for medicine).

I know Michael Moore is sometimes synonymous with bad things (though on reflection, I'm not entirely sure why; everyone bitched and moaned about Fahrenheit 911 and then it turned out he was right about pretty much everything regarding the war), and I used to be like "Michael Moore, meh, makes us progressives look bad", but I saw this video and I have to say, I don't disagree with a single word of it.

It's worth a gander, and would sum up my position better than I can.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwlsDN-Ilkc&feature=channel_page
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Vince401

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Re: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 01:12:17 PM »

I'm aware that businesses can be regulated, the government steps in a lot to tell us which countries we can do business with and sell our products in etc.

It just seemed like too great a leap for the government to tell a corporation, "Now you have to deal with the private sector.".

The tax incentive thing makes sense for sure Tycho and I like your idea. I just don't foresee it happening. And right now when we have an alternative staring us in the face I'd be hard pressed to say no to it.

I also used to have a big problem with Michael Moore but over time I'm finding myself agreeing more and more with him. My issue with most figures like Michael Moore is that they limit themselves, they enter into a rut where only the left is right and anything the right says is stupid and vice-versa. Good ideas can come from both sides of the pond but not if you're being too ignorant to listen to them.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 01:14:31 PM by Vince401 »
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Dingo

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Re: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 04:50:45 PM »

Well, that's part of what I mean; if you watch the video I linked to, he specifically says that if the democrats we elected won't give us a public option, we'll find republicans who will.

It's pretty clear he just wants what works, no matter what side votes for it.

As a rule, I have nothing personal against republicans. It's just the ones that are so radical and pre-programmed by special interests into believing anything that makes our country progress and become more efficient is evil communism, when the reality is these smears aren't against t3h red army, they're about the creators of the smears fearing being put out of business by a fair landscape. So if they have to lie and force-feed their bullshit to a radical base that's known for being loud and getting their way, hey, free pass for them.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 05:03:00 PM by Dingo »
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Vince401

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Re: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 07:45:41 PM »

Couldn't watch the video at work but it surprises me to hear Moore say that. He doesn't always have that attitude.
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Jay

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Re: *Cracks Knuckles and Posts Something Controversial* Health Care
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 07:46:55 PM »

Again, while I appreciate you shedding light on how you believe your idea could be implemented Tycho, part of my argument is that the public option already provides an incentive to health care providers to redefine their practices in the form of an instant and dangerous competitor. We're not talking about the abolition of health insurance providers, or the placement of all Americans under one government entity, we're talking about a general threat that will have health insurance providers re-think their strategies.

We are currently living with the highest health care percentage, and yet get the lowest returns. Compare that to countries that do have public health options, their percentage spent is nearly half ours, with a high standard of service. This indicate that in those countries where health insurance companies are competing with a public option, they have to keep their cost lower and more available and provide better coverage. I don't want to overstep into the realm of speculation here, and while I'm sure hospitals and doctors in competing nations aren't without corruption, it also indicates that business practices are less dictated by which pharmaceutical or medical supplier is paying the highest commission, and more by the needs of the consumer, i.e. the patient.

As Dingo said, capitalism is good for business, and not to ignore the second point he made on capitalism as it is legitimate, but there's no greater practice of free market than introducing a market entity that will seriously force the more archaic corporate structures to come at things with a fresh approach.

So as Vince said, you do present an intriguing alternative, but there is a proven method on the table right now.

Also, I'd hate to jump on the Michael Moore bandwagon, especially in Tycho's thread, but I too used to hate the guy, but as of late he's been saying things I'm able to come around more and more to.
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